Old Whelen Power Supplies

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
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JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
He's super knowledgeable, and a great guy. H helped me out with a single flash power supply for my ultra rare Whelen 1000 strobe.
I love that they gutted a senior rotabeam/deputy and added an aircraft strobe. The more this thread continues the more it really shows how Whelen products (both strobe and otherwise), and all emergency vehicle strobes in general, were born from the aviation industry.
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
Ok.... so I got it all buttoned up and the capacitors are now holding up to 600v. The timer ticks away, the "whine" occurs when ever the voltage bleeds back below 400ish and it charges back up and stops at 400v. With a strobe bulb connected there is no voltage from the green wire. I attached a crude picture of where I do and do not have what I should. Yellow checks are as they should be. The green line in has 0 volts with a tube connected.

ps.JPG
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
Ok.... so I got it all buttoned up and the capacitors are now holding up to 600v. The timer ticks away, the "whine" occurs when ever the voltage bleeds back below 400ish and it charges back up and stops at 400v. With a strobe bulb connected there is no voltage from the green wire. I attached a crude picture of where I do and do not have what I should. Yellow checks are as they should be. The green line in has 0 volts with a tube connected.
<snip>

Hope this makes sense...
1667344837437.png
We don't expect voltage on the green wire because it provides GND (via the tube).
I tried to correlate the patent diagram with the PCB to illustrate this.
The black box drawn shows "R13" which is mounted on the underside of the board.
The yellow box shows "C7" mounted on the underside as well.
Your two checkmarks near my yellow box indicate the R13 is doing its job. It's a fairly high OHM value (mine is RED/RED/YELLOW -- 200K ohms) and it "sips" a small bit of HV to charge "C7" (yellow box) and if I understand you, you're confirming there _is_ charge across "C7", the trigger cap.

I'm guessing it looks like one of these:

1667346021059.png
and I suspect it _isn't_ doing its job which is to hold that small charge (until the firing signal triggers the SCR to short it to GND which causes flash), so I suspect its leaking it.

Nominally, it should be .22 uF - 250V but I've seen/used .56uf, .47uf and 200V without a problem w/r/t to at least getting something working.

FWIW, one of the PSs I got for the SYNC exploration had a bad trigger cap. I was convinced, "there must be something wrong with the timing side of it!" and pointlessly replaced a whole bunch of parts on that side to no avail. I finally realized, "It must be the trigger cap, stupid!" and sure enough, it was!

I'll keep thinking about it but this is what I'm thinking right now...
 
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JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
PXL_20221102_002728418.MP.jpg

This I suppose.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
That's interesting, I ordered one of those since it looked cracked and was right near the trigger.PXL_20221102_004218701.MP.jpg
PXL_20221102_004035445.MP.jpg


It was $1.60. If that doesn't do it you may have another "present arriving".
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
Ah! Okay -- fingers-crossed, that it! Note the "H0574" on the Hutson HS44 SCR -- I believe that means it was mfg fifth week of '74!
Nice, I will keep you posted.
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
I de-soldered the trigger capacitor and found it tested ok. I cleaned the joints and pins and replaced it... And we have flash! Full voltage single flash strobe from this early 5000 commander supply! I will post a video shortly.
 
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RS485

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Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
So in the end, were the only things wrong, the disintigrated diode and dirty connectors? Or did you need to mess with the caps? (also, was there any difference in behavior between the first diode you put in and the harvested/correct one? If so do have a part number on that first diode you used? Thanks!
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
I didn't have any supplies I wanted to harvest and had another one needing a similar diode so I bought 5 for $3, picture below. All I did was replace the diode, cycle the caps about 100 times until they were 600v, and remove/clean/reconnect the trigger capacitor. Each step made the supply "try a little harder". Finally the supply was working prior to installing the the new diode (as was predicted) but the other side was getting warm so I replaced it and that went away (subjectively at least and in my head). So really cycling the capacitors a bunch of times and cleaning up the connections at the trigger capacitor got it working.

PXL_20221107_224010466.MP.jpg
 
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JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
Re the @Jennifer Rose Towing Commander that was thought to possibly be a 3200. I did what I do, which is buy it and take pics/vids on top of a lightbar someone else wanted. Sorry not sorry ;) . On closer inspection the very faded band does say 5200, not 3200. It is a single head later 5200 on a cast base. It has a power supply from between the "traditional pie pan" and last gen "edge on a pie pan". It has a date of 1986, which makes perfect sense. It defaults to high power and the purple wire puts it into low power. Here are some pics of the supply, a video is in the works.

Of note is that the green card says Oct. 31 1986 and the transformer has a marking of 66091 31-86.

PXL_20221109_143139451.MP.jpg
PXL_20221109_143156467.MP.jpg
PXL_20221109_143200699.MP.jpg
PXL_20221109_143208396.MP.jpgPXL_20221109_143257508.MP.jpg
 
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RS485

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Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
Very cool PS - same as the UPS-60/DOT-60 as well as this early EDGE PS.
Beside soldering/not-soldering in some stuff (outlets, switching relays), it has two tuning knobs (flashrate and cutoff) so from "one board, many offerings". Same was true for earlier pie-pan PSs which even included aircraft variants.
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
Very cool PS - same as the UPS-60/DOT-60 as well as this early EDGE PS.
Beside soldering/not-soldering in some stuff (outlets, switching relays), it has two tuning knobs (flashrate and cutoff) so from "one board, many offerings". Same was true for earlier pie-pan PSs which even included aircraft variants.
it is interesting that Whelen used modified edge supplies for several different generations of these beacons. I suppose that makes sense, why have multiple different components when you can reuse working tech.

The tuning knobs are interesting. I noticed the power supplies on my single flash 5000s have a single tuning knob that seems to do rate. The power supply that I have not opened (rivets intact) is very fast, around 100 FPM. The one I repaired is more standard 60ish fpm, the rate adjustment had factory "clear coat" over it so it hadn't been touched until I played with it (I set it back to 60). I wonder if the variation was intentional or an analog of the components. You would think they would "tune" them all to the advertised rate. I can't find it now of course, but I had a post about a Syracuse NY ladder truck that used 5000s that they had supposedly "special ordered set to hyper flash rate". I don't know if that was speculation based on observing the beacons flashing quickly or actual info from someone who knew.

Video skipped to power supply section

Video in general
 
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RS485

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Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
John, I don't see any flash-rate adjustment on the one you just repaired.
The daughter board contains the timing circuitry and that little "can" nested up against the yellow cap is a "UJT" (unijunction transistor). I see no trim-pot near it.
There's a great write-up about it here.
I'm tinkering with a non-Whelen aircraft PS from ~1968 which uses the same thing:
1668021533347.png

Very similar to that which you repaired (aircraft PS flashing two ports...i.e. no alternating which is why so little of the board is built out. As well that long wire to carry the timing signal to two SCRs for simulateous flash):
1668021594585.png

What's cool about the green tags is they document the last moment where someone _did_ adjust both the flash rate and inverter clipping to have the PS perform to spec....but the earlier in time the PS was, the less there was to adjust. Also: If all you have is clear coat between you and adjustment, that's great! Among virtually all that I've tinkered with, after adjustment, the technician burned into the trim-pot with the soldering iron to peg it in place...not easy to break free.
I believe there is some drift in the performance of the resistors and/or capacitors which influence the UJT's timing. I think they _did_ try to get it right when it left the factory...but with age, things change value slightly and thus the timing as it is today, is off-spec.
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
As far as the info you linked, it sounds like a very useful part for power supplies. "When the potential across Ct reaches the value of peak-point voltage for the particular UJT being used in the circuit, the emitter junction goes suddenly into conduction. Using the UJT approximation shown in Fig. 1, RBl promptly drops to a much lower value and Ct in Fig. 2 discharges abruptly through load resistor RL, producing a spike pulse of voltage across the output terminals. Capacitor Ct does not discharge to zero potential. Rather, it is discharged to a value determined by the series resistance between the emitter and ground and the magnitude of the discharge current. The actual value to which Ct discharges is termed the "valley voltage." When Ct discharges to this value, the emitter junction of the UJT becomes reverse biased again; then Ct begins to recharge, and the cycle repeats."

The one I repaired had one adjustment "dial", I took the clear coat off and played with it a bunch. It didn't change the rate a lot, but it did change it. Maybe it was adjusting the inverter and it also affected rate a bit? You are correct that it is not near the daughterboard/timing portions. It's hard to see in this pic and the power supply is back under the 5000 beacon. I dug it back out and took a pic and made a video.

Video of me sticking a metal screwdriver inside and "messing with it".


PXL_20221109_230022943.MP.jpg
adj.jpg

dial.png
 
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RS485

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Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
I do see what you mean, that it does change the FPM but still, that dial controls the point at which the inverter is turned off (based on cap charge level).
You can hear up to a certain point, it has no effect (because the flash discharges the caps before they ever charge up enough to cause it to kick in). But then at some point, it kicks in and starts to clip and at that point, the more you turn, the sooner it kicks in and clips.
Ideally, it shouldn't clip unless the tube is no good.
Matter of fact, to my ears there's only two different FPMs there....one when clipping _is_ kicking in, and one when its not.
Thanks for posting the vid for me to see what you're seeing :)

BTW: Kudos to you for bringing those caps back to life! That was cool!
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
I do see what you mean, that it does change the FPM but still, that dial controls the point at which the inverter is turned off (based on cap charge level).
You can hear up to a certain point, it has no effect (because the flash discharges the caps before they ever charge up enough to cause it to kick in). But then at some point, it kicks in and starts to clip and at that point, the more you turn, the sooner it kicks in and clips.
Ideally, it shouldn't clip unless the tube is no good.
Matter of fact, to my ears there's only two different FPMs there....one when clipping _is_ kicking in, and one when its not.
Thanks for posting the vid for me to see what you're seeing :)

BTW: Kudos to you for bringing those caps back to life! That was cool!
This is what I was starting to wonder after you explained the inverter cut off. There is a little variation in between the "two clear sides", but I agree it is pretty close to being engaged or not, i.e. two basic rates. Thanks for clearing that up. I am amazed it came back to life, but you have shown me enough tricks to try that I will continue shocking myself in a variety of flash patterns for years to come.
 
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JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
Here is my next project, a 24vdc 5200 Commander with the internal optic glued on instead of held with springs and no cruise light. It looked factory sealed and had a matching band.

PXL_20221115_013122483.MP.jpg
PXL_20221115_013127467.MP.jpg

I think I see the (or one of the) problem(s).....
PXL_20221115_013145218.MP.jpg
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
That's a '507 although timing comes from an "AEI-219". Very similar to the crusty one I posted earlier.

The cap you point to is just a smoothing cap on the Vin side. I'd be surprised if it is causing a problem.

I got one of these NIB and it arrived with a bad power transistor (Q2 in the patent) - you might want to try swapping this with a known-good as its pretty easy solder-less operation.

Next check might be looking for +~1.5 between the yellow wire (going to the base of Q2) and GND. If you don't see that, then test for +~1.5 between Q1's base and GND. If you don't see that, then we'll need to track down why we're not seeing the starting voltages here.

If you do see starting voltages, then check for +24 on the white wire going to Q2 and ZERO resistance between the grey wire and GND.

A good clear pic of the other side of the board will help, too (to identify Q1 and voltage divider feeding it)
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
That's a '507 although timing comes from an "AEI-219". Very similar to the crusty one I posted earlier.

The cap you point to is just a smoothing cap on the Vin side. I'd be surprised if it is causing a problem.

I got one of these NIB and it arrived with a bad power transistor (Q2 in the patent) - you might want to try swapping this with a known-good as its pretty easy solder-less operation.

Next check might be looking for +~1.5 between the yellow wire (going to the base of Q2) and GND. If you don't see that, then test for +~1.5 between Q1's base and GND. If you don't see that, then we'll need to track down why we're not seeing the starting voltages here.

If you do see starting voltages, then check for +24 on the white wire going to Q2 and ZERO resistance between the grey wire and GND.

A good clear pic of the other side of the board will help, too (to identify Q1 and voltage divider feeding it)
That capacitor was leaking everywhere or at least had been so I'm going to swap it out. It's not on the picture of the board I'm going to upload here. But I believe you may be right about the transistor. I'll do some more diggingPXL_20221115_185615799.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_185908231.MP.jpg
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
No power to the yellow wire. I guess it is time to trace.PXL_20221115_200330143.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_200319941.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_200315390.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_195941322.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_195850062.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_195805148.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_195853030.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_195727966.MP.jpg
 
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RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
That capacitor was leaking everywhere or at least had been so I'm going to swap it out. It's not on the picture of the board I'm going to upload here. But I believe you may be right about the transistor. I'll do some more diggingView attachment 240618View attachment 240619

Just for the record, Q1 is this little guy (GE D44Q3 but Whelen used other substitutes, too -- i.e. GE D44H11, TI EP2189)

Pins would be from LEFT, CENTER, RIGHT: BASE, COLLECTOR, EMITTER
1668541405405.png
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
Its also possibe "Q3" is grounding out Q1 (which normally provides the yellow wire with starting voltage).

That _could_ be because Q3 is shorted, or its getting a (false) signal from one of the other little transistors to do so...just calling that out.

1668542060517.png
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
Its also possibe "Q3" is grounding out Q1 (which normally provides the yellow wire with starting voltage).

That _could_ be because Q3 is shorted, or its getting a (false) signal from one of the other little transistors to do so...just calling that out.

View attachment 240623
PXL_20221115_201752572.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_201740679.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_201719544.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_201710852.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_201700657.MP.jpgPXL_20221115_201649669.MP.jpg
 

JohnMarcson

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May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
John -- if the neon lamp is glowing, it means the inverter ran enough to charge up (dangerous cap voltage present -- be careful). The neon lamp is delivering a signal to _clamp_ the inverter off.
This would imply that Q3 is doing its supposed to (in response to one of the other small transistors).

The problem might be more dynamic...and if you never heard the inverter charge up ("whirp"), then it means Q1 is doing the work and Q2 is not helping. Q2 _should_ be doing the real work here.
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
There is a very quick "whirp" and it stops. When the cap voltage falls low enough it "whirps" up again.

 
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RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
That changes everything...this means the inverter is working fine (Q1, Q2, Q3) -- now the question is why is it turning off so quickly. Okay, how many volts you have on the main caps?
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
That changes everything...this means the inverter is working fine (Q1, Q2, Q3) -- now the question is why is it turning off so quickly. Okay, how many volts you have on the main caps?
230 volts on the caps.
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
That's within range of low-power - do you "whirp" up longer if the purple low-power wire is grounded? (and measure ~400+ V on the caps?)
 

JohnMarcson

Administrator
May 7, 2010
10,987
Northwest Ohio
That's within range of low-power - do you "whirp" up longer if the purple low-power wire is grounded? (and measure ~400+ V on the caps?)
Yes, the cycle is a tad longer and voltage higher. I replaced the capacitors too just in case. They seem to loose voltage very fast for having not fired...even the new ones.
 

RS485

Supporting Donor
Aug 5, 2019
370
Central MA
Yes, the cycle is a tad longer and voltage higher. I replaced the capacitors too just in case. They seem to loose voltage very fast for having not fired...even the new ones.
So listening closely to your vid, I hear a pattern of "thumps" (not "clicks") that would seem to be in-line with the flash triggering. If this is accurate, it tells me the AEI-219 is sending the SCRs timing pulses so we don't need to worry about the timing. The only thing left is triggering.
I'll assume you're measuring ~200V across both sides of that 2uf 600V big yellow cap on the board. Pretty much the only things left are the two SCRs and four smaller trigger caps:
1668548577693.png
If I were you, I'd actually try to desolder the white wire (going to the trigger pin on the flashtube) and try each of the three other output ports on the PCB. The board looks to be built out for four ports (Whelen often did this).

If lucky, it will reveal whether an SCR is no good, or a trigger cap. (one SCR shorts two trigger caps).

Then again, your observation about relatively quick diminishing of the primary caps gives me pause...maybe I'm missing something - but I just don't see it at the moment.
 

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